Welcome to difficult dialogues voices from the valley. President Holyoke College
difficult dialogues is intended to bring voices from the valley to bear on some of
the most important and complex social issues of the day today we're going to be
talking about gender identity and I'm pleased to have with me two guests Jenny
Beeman who's the director of the Stonewall Center at the University of
Massachusetts Amherst and Mitch who is
a faculty member in the university without walls at the University of Massachusetts
Amherst thank you so much for joining me. There's been an
interesting proposal in California that is similar to Proposition eight and it is
intended to reverse recent legislation that would protect the rights of
students to access to locker room to bathrooms to sports teams
that align with their gender identity tell us what you think about the significance
of this we have parents on both sides of the issue who are saying this is
a matter of parental rights how would you frame the issue. Well I think that the
religious right has lost largely on the issue of same sex marriage and
increase and I think they're moving towards this issue as sort of
a way to be able to create
a false panic around particularly but they see is being able to enter
women's restrooms in locker rooms to be able to harass assault women and girls
which is really just a false pretext last week there was for example
a story in the ME that was just an outright lie about that situation having
happened in
a public school really the issue is not the fear of. Men
who are biological man going into women's restrooms or or
a locker was really is to transfer people who are the ones who are in danger we're
the ones who are being harassed for example a study that was done by
a glisten the Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network showed that two thirds of
trans youth feel unsafe in their schools that almost all had experienced
verbal harassment and more than half had experienced those school harassment in the
past year since we would talk about is trying to protect those those used and the
truth is we've had for more than
a year now the the state's war of elementary secondary education issued guidelines
in two thousand and twelve after the nondiscrimination act in Massachusetts became
law that pretty much does what California does in terms of protecting trans youth
when it comes to bathrooms locker rooms build appear in sports teams in keeping
with their gender identity as well as also talks about about using appropriate name
protecting privacy really fantastic doc when they were already working in
Massachusetts and I see little problems with that being done. Mitch what do you
have to say about this proposal absolutely
a green agenda here that they critical the thing that I'm most critically concerned
about is the protection of trance tunes who are you know subject to so much abuse
and harassment in schools every day and this really sends the message to
transducers that they have a right to be in school that they have
a right to all of the public resources and education they're available to other
students. I think that it also points to the need to.
Critically and gauge to read the way we think about gender and sexuality in our
culture and that our binary concepts of gender and sexuality don't hold up in to
the lived experiences of people and I think that we'll see that throughout this
discussion that that's one of the major shifts that our car culture needs to catch
up with that we're organized around
a. Concept of gender sexuality that doesn't reflect the real lives of people.
Jenny you mentioned language and how that is used to shape perceptions could you
talk
a little bit about the law and the impact of the legislation on on how we refer to
individuals Well the. Language Around around transgender is is one that is
still the course valving the research that I've done. People literally had hundreds
of different terms they use is fried their gender identity which really makes
a mockery of having forms that as sex or ass and I think that language is what
some some people because they have a perception that
a trans woman is basically a guy in
a dress. And so they have this idea that someone's going to be entering
a woman's locker room or woman's bathroom who really is identified and looking very
male and that's not what we're talking about we're talking about individuals who
who I very strongly identify and have since very early in life as female who are
presenting female who look very female you'd be able to use the stories that make
the most sense for them. Because they measured that person trying to go into
a men's bathroom or
a men's locker room and what kind of situation that's going to bring for them in
terms of being assaulted being harassed so it really the people don't have
a grass we're talking about here in terms of presentation terms of the language and
what that means for individual lives. In which you talked about gender not being
this binary about but more of. A continuum and so how do we use the how do the
ways in which we use language reinforce or re inscribed the notion that it is
indeed
a binary when you want to argue against that well in fact I mean all of our cultural
landscape including language and institutions really reinforce this concept that
there are two biological sexes and two genders that culturally coincide so that
male is a man or a boy and female is a girl or
a woman and in fact there's intersex children plenty of intersex children that
trouble that binary on
a physiological level and then there are transgender people who have numerous
numerous identities in between that spectrum and you know very often what comes to
attention is transsexuality But even but. You know for some transsexual
people these this binary fits for their gender identity but for many many many
trans people the binary doesn't quite reflect our identities and so I think that
it's important just to constantly be opening up our ways of thinking about gender
and sexual identity. You talked about bullying and harassment in the schools but it
takes place in the workplace as well but there was
a recent South Dakota case which was
a landmark case in which woman was awarded fifty thousand dollars which was the
maximum award for were being fired after she revealed to that she was going to
transition from male to female Tell us what employers can do to create safe working
environments and to raise awareness around issues of gender identity.
Well many of the same issues happen in the workplace as do in the school systems.
So I think that. You know trans people have all of the protections that other
people have in the workplace and that includes the use of bathrooms that are
appropriate not having to go to
a segregated bathroom that's only for them or that's in
a different office where they have to walk up three flights of stairs being treated
appropriately in the workplace using the correct pronouns of the person. Not being
subject to harassment of course not being fired for coming out as trans or
transitioning on the job so I think that you know just creating an environment just
like the message of. Maybe one two six six in California sends the message to
trance Judith's that they have
a place here I think that employers can really set the stage for that as well in
their workplaces by by just making it impossible for people to be harassing
people at work and one more thing is that you know these are very interrelated
because when students are driven out of schools by bullying and harassment it
starts
a downward spiral for them so that they end up dropping out of high school unemployed
and then having
a hard time getting employment and not being able to get jobs they end up in
a in the street or in underground economy that then brings them into the prison
system and it's
a real downward spiral and so I think that both of these issues show promise in
a changing landscape which is moving in
a new direction and I see hope in that but there's still a lot
a long way to go. I would just add to that from
a policy perspective employers should have to know identity cremation policy should
be providing coverage for transitioning individuals covering
hormones and medical care surgeries also having
transgender issues be part of Title nine trainings part of anti
harassment trainings and treated really as seriously as as sexual harassment as
many employers do because they're afraid of being sued by being held accountable
and I think that the same issue is coming up more and more as you mention the South
Dakota case more and more trance paypal are taking action and suing when they're
mistreated at work recognize that if the employer wants me to create
a supportive climate or at least certainly not
a hostile one to be maintained so I think we're going to see more and more
litigation and more and more employers being put on the hot seat there we just had
this this year you mentioned that case in the UNWTO nine being. Invoked you also
had
a case settlement that came up with. Schools has been California Arcadia where they
the government said very specifically that trans students are covered under Title
nine and that institutions of higher education in K.
Twelve have to be protecting France students I think going to be
a really landmark decision in terms of changing the landscape on on the K.
To twelve and college level. Certainly these legal cases can help serve as an
impetus for bringing forward. Legislation that will protect the rights of
transgender individuals at the same time more than ninety percent of transgender
people report being harassed in the workplace and they fear going to legal
authorities because there's further harassment at that level so it would seem that
we need to have training in the legal system as well any ideas on how to approach
that. It's the big issue I think that there's
a society that has
a learning curve to go when it comes to trends and I think the legal system in
particular is need to catch up with where where people were starting to see more
and more laws be put in place to boarding trans people it still is still very slow
we only have seventeen states that offer protection for for transfer people so I
don't base rumination when it comes to employment housing public accommodation so
we're still talking about
a small number of states that haven't gone that far to protect and we were getting
some good case law the government has been very fantastic in terms of its head on
line of work and issuing. Missives about what schools and employers should be
doing to protect people based upon general such orientation but I think the courts
really haven't really caught up with it we don't have
a lot of good case law yet and
a lot of this it is never been litigated like I'm on my ass all the time well what
is the legality of this I say Well with this wife thing but it really has not been
litigated you know so we don't really know how that might turn out. And I think
that we can learn
a lot from the feminist movement around issues of sex discrimination and sexual
harassment and you know learn from the educational initiatives that feminist women
have pushed in the workplace in order to create equal conditions and I think that
you know trans people can really learn from that there's also
a lot of. Trans law organizations that is Sylvia Rivera Law Project in New York
does excellent work in representing trans people there's glad has done great work
Transgender Law Center so there's
a lot of organizations now that are working to create that litigation that will
that will make it will you know give those founding cases. Met you mentioned trans
individuals in and persons and we know that there was
a flurry of media activity around the Private Manning case talked about how the
media frames transgender people and issues surrounding transgender
individuals and the impact that that has on attempts to make progress toward human
rights. I think that there's
a large variation in media coverage of trans people you know sometimes I mean in
the one hand media can be very enabling right so social media Internet has done
huge things for the trans community and parents of chance children in terms of
building support networks and. In all of the other ways that social media can call
attention to certain cases. Mainstream media you know I think that there is
a large Mary ation in representation to transfer historically trance Paypal have
been regularly represented as. Kind of as liars as
thieves as as falsely presenting themselves maybe
a little bit crazy. You know but that is really it's starting to change just like
all of these the the legal landscape in the schools and media is starting to change
as well and we're seeing more. Different representations of trans people and you
know I think talk about River and Cox
a little bit you know but the whole Chelsea Manning case was really interesting
when when she came out and said I want to be referred to by Chelsea and as she I
was just
a amazed by the amount of attention that garnered I got more calls from the
media about that than I've gotten about any anything so really it's struck
a chord in for
a lot of media that was kind of when they first like oh there's there are some
issues here we should be talking about it because the Medicaid was such
a visible headline grabbing story that they really want to follow up on that but
it's so disappointing though to see that so much of the media even places that are
tend to be more liberal like N.P.R.
New York Times were not initially referring to her as as she and as Chelsea and
we're doing kind of we're going around that and saying that this is how the person
want to refer to herself we're going to call her he so thankfully they eventually
got that figured out and realized that I would better training about what proper
terminology be using around transgender and I think in the long run it did help to
get more people to understand what exactly we're talking only refer to transgender
and and people are transitioning and using appropriate names and programs I think
it is in the end it did something good but I think the media really didn't get it
get it and I think that we showed just how much the media itself needs to be
educated on these issues because the media is just so critical to to how people
perceive things and their recognition of things I remember when Chaz Bono went on
Dancing With The Stars and how big that was you know which I'm not
a like you and I kind of thing but you know how that really put trans people in the
spotlight in
a way that had never happened before that you know that people were turning in and
seeing this person dance who happen to be trans and how that helped normalize why
some people on the radical right were so. By that because it is making trans people
just like anyone else and oh my god we can't have that happen God God forbid. This
generation we're seeing huge change to take place because of people I chose Bonnell
like the Glee Laverne Cox who referred to being someone who's out as
a trans person and being successful as an actor to be able to be in
a leading show Orange Is The New Black and. Become very popular and in people
except her for who she is and movie making it possible for trance paypal to
actually for the first time really build the play trans people on screen as well as
hopefully in time Bill to play nontransparent hers as well we brought Laverne to
you mouse last week and. I thought we get
a good crowd I was just overwhelmed by the fact that we we succeeded capacity
a room had seven hundred people there and had turned several hundred people away I
never would have thought that now there would have been five years ago but it shows
just how the landscape is changing thanks to having some visibility in the media
transferrable all the time the campus and. Lucky will get fifty people out of
something so having someone who's like a celebrity who they recognize who has
a certain popularity really brings this issue home and she did great things to say
about being trans and and educating people the audience was really fabulous and I
really want
a long way I think that helping people who are who are not trans which was almost
everyone in the audience will better understand transition. Well congratulations on
that along those lines even with such
a landmark representation as Laverne Cox on Orange Is The New Black you know she
she is represented as being selfish in terms of her wanting to transition and that
she shouldn't feel in any way betrayed when her wife or ex-wife you know wants to
pursue other relationships or and also she's in there for stealing money for
hormones and so once again you know we're seen trans people represented as the as
selfish you know putting their own needs in front of the needs of
a family which is also
a typical type of thing that we see in media representations right on or also as
a comic figure as
a comic figure show us so the subject of ridicule and late night talk shows but I
saw in the characterizations it's
a kind of neo minstrelsy right applied to me and I think group. So you
mentioned young children as well but I want you to say
a little bit about what advice you would give parents I've seen
a couple of shows recently and read
a few articles about parents whose children are identifying. Very early in
a way that goes against social norms they are worried about the psychological harm
that could come from denying those proclamations and feelings and yet they are
aware of the the bullying and the abuse that children can take by going against
these norms so what would you recommend. There's a great book The just came out by
a woman by name Lori Durand who had
a blog called Raising my rainbow which is now the name of the book which is about
raising now six year old child who she refers to as C.J.
Who from very young age identified his gender nonconforming and the struggles that
they went through as a family to raise
a child who was gender nonconforming and basically her movement from. The nice
thing the best interest of themselves the parents versus the best interest of that
child in recognizing
a lot of what they were doing in terms trying to restrict the gender behavior that
was more feminine of this of this males
a sign child was really not to protect them but that the child I mean to protect
the parents and recognizing that the child need to be who the child was and the
dangers of not allowing that to happen because many people who live interview from
my research who were much older talk about they were male assigned identified as
female how their parents basically stifled that and how that really ruined their
lives in a lot of ways to force them to repress who they were to go into really
a lot of really awful behaviors in terms of drugs and alcohol and some detective
suicide is the one really I think. Children decide where to go with that let the
children lead you know follow their example and what their needs are and try to
pressure them best you can from from blame in really it's more the parents' own
culpability more than the child and comfortability
a lot of times because our laws to predict trouble to you know were harassed or
discriminated against and so really the parenting Do you know think what's best for
the children. Good you know so and I would agree that you know what trance judge
and need more than anything is a supportive environment and
a place where they can explore without shame become you know ask interesting
questions let the child lead let's give the child space to explore who they are you
know they may change changes they as they grow older they may not you know but
following that child and really just seeing yourself as
a guide to protect and to create
a space where that child can be protected from the harassment that he's either
she's going to be facing an R.
In the social world all the time and the other thing is to get support parents need
to support themselves they need to see because they'll be taking criticism too from
other parents who will feel like they're indulging their children and so it's
really important to get support by not that you're not dealing with out there that
your child is not the only child like this and that you know there's wonderful
support systems through the Internet especially. And what about gender reassignment
surgery you have
a teen who says I'm ready for the surgery would you allow the team to make the
decision in the way that you would allow
a teen to make any serious medical decision or fortunate not to be in
a position where we have gender blockers you know hormone blockers so that people
can postpone not to where they're in
a place where they feel they can make that decision and go through the puberty that
is that is right for them and so you don't have to have people to get younger and
younger as it seems every year so we don't you know have to have like an eight or
nine or ten year old making that decision about transitioning we can have that
person be on hormone blockers for several years and then get to
a more better place bill to make that kind of decision but we have been doing this
work for a lot of years so we have
a good sense of in terms of gender therapist can tell when we're talking about
someone who really is transgender versus someone who may be for whatever reason
feel like that that is who they are now that might change in the future. Tell us
a bit about best practices on college and university campuses since you're both
members of the university community wow OK this is the work I've been doing.
Writing and speaking to us last fifteen years so I can go on forever but just very
briefly I think it's important that institutions have dinner identity in their
nondiscrimination policy we only have about seven hundred colleges that even taken
that basic step which is about only about one sixth of the colleges that are done
so. This year we're we're seeing what's more rapid increase in that we're
seeing women's colleges we're seeing this work the black colleges do that so it's
a really fantastic increase in the last couple years when it comes to that having
dinner inclusive bathrooms and locker rooms that are that are private facilities
that people who want to have
a space that we're not going to be. Those are other people can can do so and having
policies that allow people to use the bathroom and locked rooms that keep their
gender identity to provide hormones to surgery as part of student health insurance
giving students a chance to use
a different name that in their legal name on it is to document so this is now two
by having
a professor for example read the role on the phone the first day of class giving
students
a chance to change the gender marker as well so the college recognizes them for who
they feel themselves to be and then also providing gender inclusive housing so
students can have
a roommate or suite mate or part made of of whatever gender that they choose so
that they are in
a Caldwell living situation and don't have to worry about being being harassed in
their own home and about one hundred fifty colleges have had done that so we've
missed that's again
a very small number but we're increasing very rapid when it comes to that. That's
fantastic. The concern I hear most is with respect to inclusive it evolves sorts
and so if you have conservative Christians or Muslims students who are proscribed
from living with someone of the opposite gender and then there's
a transition in person they say well what about our rights what about inclusive and
for us so how do we respond to that as well it's you know like for example no one
says to someone else you have to have
a roommate of this particular gender you know it's all it's all sign and it's all
interested students so it's an accommodation in the same sort of issues come up
when we're talking about conservative Christian students or Orthodox Jewish
students or or Muslim students you know their needs are coming as well no one's
being told they have to live with
a certain person in their environment it's more of giving this or one kind of
a chance to be comfortable and safe and feel included. And. Any last
comments well I'd just like to emphasize that you know
a lot of the topics we're talking about today are addressing people that you know
for the most part already have
a certain amount of social and economic privilege you know getting into colleges
and employment situations and things like that and. You know I'm always very aware
that I don't really represent the trans community at large I often feel very much
like an anomaly in that I have certain privileges and economic and educational
privileges that the vast majority of transferrable don't have and so particularly
trans women of color who are you know I did
a quick google very cursory Google search this morning on the transfer of color in
the number of murders and homicides that are taking place and since July when
Diamond Williams was killed I found eight in
a very quick Google search eight since July of trans women of color that are being
murdered on this on the streets every day and so you know I feel like. You know
it's just always really important to keep that in mind that there's many many many
trans people the majority of trans people are really marginalized economically and
socially. I think you need to add to that you know. You're talking mostly about
this country but around the world trans people now color you know face huge to
discrimination and I think it's an eighty people were killed just in the first four
months of this year or trans people around the world that we know of of course are
many more we don't know about and almost all those who are trans will call are from
very poor backgrounds and who didn't have
a chance to do to escape from poverty and and such when we speak about media
representation I'd really love to see more media representation of the homicides
that are taking place you know like that's where I would really like to see more
media coverage rather than on the sexual reassignment issues or issues around
surgery and hormones is just
a very small segment of the issues that face chance people thank you so much for
your insights and your extraordinary contributions thank
you you thank
.